Paranormal Happenings

3-06-2011 Updates...
  It's been a while since we added anything here, so I guess it's time to write, lol!
  So much has happened since I wrote the below entries.
 Through all this time we've continued investigating great locations and have helped people with ghost and spirit activity while on ghost hunts.
  We appeared on television on the Tori and Dean show last March.
  We began our radio show on 7-02-10 at http://blogtalkradio.com/claranormal.
  Later we were offered our own TV show which was pitched but not picked up.
  We helped a little bit with organizing the first ever SoCalParaCon.
  Our group grew in October, shrank in November, then grew explosively in late December.
  We've worked helping to put together a couple of TV shows in various capacities, none paid, talked to some producers about some projects, and things like that.
  In other words, everything we do has been an ongoing concern. We've gone on many great ghost hunts and taken on some great, and puzzling paranormal investigations.

  Now on the media attention, let me explain a couple of things.
  Just because the media knocks on our door (and occasionally vice-versa) doesn't mean we're sell-outs. We will always have the highest  possible standards in regards to our evidence collection and presentation. 99+% of what we get in the field is discarded for one reason or another, and we'll never change that in order to make a good presentation. Helping people is our first priority, and collecting real proof of ghost and spirit activity is what we seek. If the attention comes, great, and if not, we're still doing what we love.

  The paranormal field is a lot of fun. We meet up with some of the most impressive people who happen to be in this field, clients and other groups alike, as well as people of various beliefs and opinions. So many of these people are razor sharp smart, have incredible sense of humors, are innovative and are a pleasure to work with. Altruistic too, in that none of us make money doing this. If a paranormal group charges for their services, they are generally looked upon as pariahs, scam artists, so none of the reputable groups charge for their services. However, this "hobby" is not a cheap hobby.
Equipment costs money. Travel costs money. Some locations charge for entry, the best of which can be very expensive. So what to do, hmmmm. Costs money, don't charge.
  A ghost hunting crew can simply eat the costs, which is what almost all of us do, or they can recycle what they are already doing for their clients or themselves and present their findings it to the general public in the hopes of offsetting their costs. This can be done by writing a book, creating YouTube videos which may earn them adsense income if their videos do well, or they can land a TV contract.
 

Each year hundreds of people and groups do in fact vie for a scant handful of TV show openings, and even the fact that dozens of shows are developed each year, very, very few ever make it onto the air, leaving so very many people and groups without a TV show and the prospect of earning an income while enjoying their hobby. That's just the nature of the beast folks, the entertainment industry. There's only so many time slots, only so many shows, and only the best and / or most lucky make it onto the air.
  One thing to remember about TV shows based the paranormal field is that first and foremost, it's entertainment. Advertisers, producers, stations and networks must turn a profit or the shows go off the air. This leads many to believe that these shows make things up, fabricate evidence, and maybe some do, but I have never seen this happen. Everyone we have worked with is top notch, A+ people, and I have yet to witness anything untoward on a filming. Granted, I haven't seen a lot of them, but the point is that I myself have never witnessed chicanery of any sort.
We will never "sell-out," and just as I know that we do not present fake evidence, my sincere hope is that none do. Ever.

 

6-07-2010
  Well, we got a little more time at Hollywood Forever Cemetery, found Valentino's crypt, said hi, and walked the mausoleum he's interred in. We also found Peter Finch, which was a surprise. Still, we had just under an hour there, really not even close to enough time to do even the most basic set up, but one does what one can.
 We also spent some time in the "gone too soon" section, the children's section, which just makes me sad. At least it's a little lifting to see the care people put into these plots, but not lifting enough to get over the sadness.
  After HFC, we ambled over for a day trip to Suicide Bridge in Pasadena, and by the time we got done we discovered a few things. One is that there are homeless people living in the bushes there, though they don't seem to bother the park users. Another is that the area under the 110 freeway bridge is awesome, like a huge, gray, concrete cathedral. I don't mean it's ornate, but just awe inspiring. There's about 3 acres of dirt beneath this overpass, which is a good 250 feet above your head, and that which is above you is graceful curving concrete arches. It was worth the trip just to experience that. The last thing learned was a lesson I have already learned, but didn't follow, and that is to dress appropriately. By the time we got done climbing around the underside of the bridge, we were soaked through with sweat, and I, the idiot I am, am in semi-dress clothes, and didn't bring a change. Suicide Bridge is the only place where we've ever been blanked. Ok, not entirely blanked, in that we did get the picture of the ghost we call "Satchel" last time, but that picture is so open to interpretation.  We won't review the evidence from this day trip for a couple of days, but when we do we will be thorough.
  After that we cruised up to Lucky Baldwin's Pub in old town Pasadena to meet up with the Yussi Paranormal group. Justin and Steve got there early and had a bite to eat (and coffee), and by the time they were done Yussi had shown up, and his group began to arrive. If you're in the SoCal area and want to go on a ghost hunt, or are just curious, we're always open to visitors, and I also recommend you check out Yussi's group. We enjoyed meeting everybody in Yussi's group, they being really great people, and are thankful for the opportunity to hang with them.
  From the pub we went, of all places, back to Suicide Bridge, this time focusing on the upper deck, something we've never done. There are a couple of particular places on this bridge where I was literally overcome with emotion, from desperation to extreme sadness. This should come as no surprise, as there have to be scores of imprinted emotions on this aptly named bridge, there having been well over a hundred people ending their lives there.
 We'll review the evidence over the next couple of days and see if we caught anything, and if so, it'll be posted on the appropriate pages.
 
5-29-2010
 Did a quick (10 minute) run through of Hollywood Forever Cemetery, stopped by Linda Vista Hospital, and did a quick revisit of  Oak Park Cemetery today. I'm tired!

5-15-2010
Some huge news coming, most of which we're not permitted to talk about yet, and some of which we can never talk about, but we'll give that which we can, but only if it does not violate contract terms as well as our own code of ethics.

I'll start with the most benign stuff first.

We have submitted the story treatment and partial script I mentioned in an earlier post to a production company, but since they haven't  gotten back in touch or sent a release to be signed, I'm assuming that either they didn't get it (unlikely), didn't like it (likely), or deleted it after having been driven stark raving mad by the story (yeah, that's the ticket).
To be fair, we didn't send it in the exact format they called for, so they likely just deleted it, which is fine. I'll continue working on it in my spare time. So look for it in about 120 years.

Justin recently did an investigation with his girlfriend Sam at his girlfriends house, which apparently has a ton of activity.  Toilets flushing on their own, strange noises, doors slamming and ice cold rooms. The data hasn't made it in yet, but I'm told there's at least one great EVP, and a really creepy picture. Can't wait to see / post these!

We just received a brand new K2 meter, as well as a new "Ghost Meter" EMF detector this week, and in initial testing we have found that on some objects and areas each mirrors the other's resulting readings, but at times either is more sensitive and responsive to Electo-Magnetic energy than the other.  We're still working on a reason for this. We're also looking for a new Tri-Field meter at a good price, so if know of one, please drop us a line!

Those of you who have been constantly watching us, you'll note that you rarely see us using EMF meters, because basically, we really don't need to depend on them. Most if not all of our members are weirdly gifted to sensing the paranormal, so these meters are redundant, but you will see us filming our use of them more and more. As a documenting tool they are unparalleled, leaving that which we find a little less subjective.

Speaking of subjective, we also have a brand new Paranormal PX coming (it was shipped today, as a matter of fact) which will  probably arrive Wednesday. The PPX (Paranormal PX) is built by the same people who built the discontinued (and highly prized) Ovilus and the Paranormal Puck, and coincidently is like a melding of the two. Unlike the original Ovilus, it has a built in speaker, and like the puck it can be hooked up to a computer. It also doubles the original Ovilus's 1024 word vocabulary to 2048 words. This being a feature rich item, we can hardly wait to put it to good use.

Ok, on the thing I can't talk about, just be sure to check in here often so we can give you more information on the mysterious thing of which I write. That is once we're given the green light to do so. On this mystery item, we were told we could bring a couple people at most, which is ok because we only had a couple people available. I was one of them, and despite my discomfort when on the wrong end of cameras (that being the lens side...I've been working on overcoming this) there was no way I was going to miss this. I would have rather had Justin and / or Amber do this, either together or with Scott (who was spectacular, by the way), but that isn't the way the universe wanted it.
That's all for now.

Steve

 

 

EVP from main basement of the Granada Theater
7-08-10

I got home the other night from an investigation of, ironically, the Granada Theater, which we did in combination with Yussi Paranormal's rather large group to find a hateful post on YouTube regarding one of our earlier Granada Theater EVP videos.
"You guys are fake as hell!! Stop making stupid-ass videos...No wonder there are so many skeptics out there!" is what this guy had to say.
I guess the saying is correct, if you don't have haters, you're not doing it right.
So I deleted this spew, and wrote him back a polite, yet stern email letting him know that:
A) Everything we do is 100% real. We don't fake anything, never have, and never will. There are countless people who can, and will attest to this.
B) Defamation, such as libel and slander, can cost a gob of money to defend against, so, regardless of the stresses that he faces in life that cause him to snipe at people while hiding behind the Internet, he should really know what he's talking about before spewing his hate.
C) That maybe his visceral public reaction was due to this EVP sounding too good to be true, to be real. Well, it is real, it is true, so get over it.

In this vein, I published both the previously unpublished forward version of this EVP and the previously published (in video format) backward "Get Out" version in MP3 format on YoureOn.net. They were uploaded there because, unlike YouTube, you can upload straight audio there without it having to be attached to a video, and people can download said audio items.
Reverse version: http://youreon.net/audio/31/granada-basement-reverse-version
Forward version: http://youreon.net/audio/30/granada-basement-get-out-evp-played-forward

Forward version of basement EVP


Backward version of basement EVP


I then invited him to download these audios and examine them, with a challenge to "debunk" them. He won't be able to debunk them though, nor can anyone else, as they are authentic. I even pointed him to a site where he could get free software to play and analyze the recordings with.

Usually when somebody does something like the hateful sniping this guy did, they're simply trying to drag you down into the same self-pity filled hole they're in, or they're looking for promotion for their own videos, or they have some sort of "Vigilante Self Gratification" complex that needs stoking. I understand all that, but know your facts.

How this EVP came to be found.
I am a sensitive, but not a very good one, in that it is something I can not control. What this means is I can, on occasion, pick up on energies and imprints from the past. I have demonstrated this time and again, and anyone who knows me well can attest to this. In the main basement of the Granada Theater I picked up on some things that were imprinted, embedded in that basement. One was an intensely emotional scene, the other rather mundane, though they were connected. I have never published the scenes, and I never will, though I did pass this information on to one man who is key at the Granada Theater. I thought it was silly, this impression, and was sure I had fabricated it from my own imagination. Much to my surprise, another well known sensitive empathic had picked up on pretty much the same thing about a month earlier, though I did not know this until 5 MONTHS after my first visit to the Granada Theater. I was absolutely floored.
When we began leaving the basement of the theater, one of the guides began telling me a joke. I listened to his joke as closely as I could, so as not to be rude, but as we approached, then climbed the steep stairs out of the basement, something grabbed my attention to my left side. It was very, very strong, and would not be ignored. Most of the way up the stairs on either side is concrete, and I turned to look at it, puzzled as to why my attention was being so strongly pulled to the left. "It's just concrete, for goodness sake, there can't be anything there" I thought. Meanwhile the guide continued his long joke, something about men falling down, but I couldn't recite the joke to this day, because I only heard about every third word, my attention so strongly pulled left.
If you listen to the forward version of the EVP, you'll hear the joke, and every time a man falls down in the joke, the guide says "Ahhhhhh."
Now, I did not consciously hear or remember any of the "Ahhhhhh"'s in the joke, my attention drawn elsewhere, so when I reviewed the recording from that section of the hunt, I was sincerely bothered and puzzled as to what the "Ahhhhhh"'s were. It sounded like a woman going "Ahhhhhh," so my assumption was that it was Amber or Bridget who said the "Ahhhhhh"'s. I asked both, and each said no, they said nothing of the sort.
Back to square one. I had to eliminate the "Ahhhhhh"'s as something paranormal, and I had no memory of them, so I was stumped. I asked co-founder Justin to listen to them, and it was his friend Sergio, who had been there that night, who figured out and volunteered what the "Ahhhhhh"'s were. It was the guide. The "Ahhhhhh"'s were part of the guides joke. Man falls down and says ahhhhhh! Man falls again and says ahhhhhh!
This was after I had listened to this recording 50 or 60 times myself, and I was still puzzled, but now it made sense, and I felt like a complete idiot. I listened a few more times, and sure enough, Sergio was right. Ok, mystery solved.
Still, something had grabbed my near full attention down there, so I was still baffled.
Now I turned my attention to the weird sonics I observed in the same recording when I had played it over and over trying to figure out the "Ahhhhhh"'s, as if it were some great song. There was one particular spot which sounded almost like a long, deep voiced note from a song in the background, and that was the spot I focused on. I could not make any sense of it through any normal methods, slowing it down in increments down to 10%, speeding it up in increments up to 1000% normal. I took it into the equalizer to filter out other sounds, as I thought it sounded modulated, like syllables. Goose egg. Still couldn't tell what it was. I changed the tempo and pitch, and still nothing. The last thing to try was reversing it. As luck would have it, the section that I highlighted and clipped out for reversal had the resonant sonic I mentioned above, and a second sound I had not heard in the forward version.
When I listened to the reversed version, the previously unheard sound said something which sounded an awful lot like a very quick "getout." I was stunned. I sat at my desk still listening as the reverse recording continued to play. "Whoa, what was tha..."
Then the second one played, the rich, resonant sonic I had previously only heard forward. All doubt was removed. "Get Out" was clearly enunciated. I pushed my chair away from my desk absolutely stunned, shocked to the point of inaction as the recording continued for a few more seconds, then ended.
Oh my, I thought, we got something here. I went and got a team member from the other room, sat down at my desk and cued the recording while asking him to listen and asked him to tell me what he thought.
He listened passively while the first, fast "getout" played, and I checked his face for a reaction. Nothing. Then the second "Get Out" played, and his eyes got as big as saucers, he turned to the door, ran out, slamming the door behind him.
I couldn't help but laugh, because had I been standing when I first heard it, I too would have likely fled.
So we then created the video to display what was found. In retrospect, we probably should have included both versions, the forward version and reverse version, in the video, but we were still pretty new at creating videos as the time.

Oh, it would be a simple thing to do, to fake stuff, but seriously, what does one gain? Our goal is to prove life exists after living, but do so by INVALIDATING evidence and findings, not CREATING findings. Well over 99% of what we find is invalidated for one reason or another, and is never posted. Even a good deal of good findings are put on the shelf if we can not explain why it is the way it is.

See, I'll be the first to volunteer that we're not good, we're just very, very lucky. Sometimes things just fall into our laps. One caveat though, and it's a lyric from an old Rush tune: Good work is the key to good fortune.
Had I not taken the initiative to ferret out that sonic, we would have never found the "Get Out" EVPs.

Let me make it simple:
The two biggest, best assets a parnormal group has is its integrity, and its people. I mention integrity first because it is infinitly more important than a group's people. A paranormal group can operate with as little as one person, and as people come and go, the group continues. However a group can not operate without it's integrity. Period. And nothing will ever get us to sacrifice our integrity.

 

 

 

 Why do we do it?

Apparent Demon we caught at a cemetery.

Ghost hunts. Ghost investigations. There's a difference, which we'll save for another entry, but the question is, why do we do them?
I can't speak for other groups, nor can I speak for other members of our own group, http://claranormal.com/, but I can speak for myself.
Like most people who do as we do, I grew up experiencing paranormal activities of one kind or another, and like many of these people, my sincere desire is to bring comfort to others in the knowledge that we don't just fade to black when we our bodies expire. That it isn't like somebody flicked the light switch and you're in the dark, then nothing more, cancel Christmas. I, myself, have in person seen, heard and experienced enough in my life to know that isn't the case. We continue. The soul God placed in our body lives on.
If on the way we can also help a lost soul or two, living or after-living, great. That doesn't mean that we go into a haunted location and yell "Go to the light!" or any such other Hollywood nonsense. Many ghosts know they stayed behind, so you're not telling them anything new. "Oh! Is that what I'm supposed to do with the light? I was wondering! I've spent the last 50 years making ghost shadow puppets with it! Silly me!"
Some don't know though, whether it's denial, or the way that they passed, they are utterly unaware of that they've passed. The Queen Mary's engine room for example. We've had a revisit on our "To Do" list for a while now, so that our newer members can experience a truly haunted location, but also for my own sort of selfish reasons: to get more information from one ghost we caught on an EVP who stated his age, "Forty," and followed later with ..."I don't know what happened to me." We plan to ask him his name, what year he last remembers. From that and any other info he volunteers, we will research it and bring him answers.
Claranormal is a service, and a service should serve...

How to Dress for a Ghost Hunt

 

How to dress for a ghost hunt or a ghost investigation?
Comfort is the first word which comes to mind. Appropriately is the second word.
The former is a no brainer. If someone, man or woman, is wearing stiletto heels on a hunt, they're nuts, and they are endangering themselves and others. In you're under dressed in the cold, you will be less effective. The same goes for overdressed in the warm, but you always shed layers.
About those layers.
We did a hunt recently in which three of our investigators showed up in all black, or very dark colors. This is not such a problem on a daylight investigation, but in the pitch black? Not so much. First and foremost they endangered others and themselves, and secondly they ran the risk of contaminating evidence due to poor viewing or people placement.
At least one light, or white item should be worn by everybody. I've thought about purchasing photographer's vests in a light color and putting our secondary logo on the front, and for good measure, an individual reflective strip on the back of each vest, so we can recognize by the reflection who is who if all else fails. Plus they have a lot of cool pockets for gadgets. This I haven't done yet because of the cost, and because the next thing they'll be expecting is liquid nitrogen cooled flux capacitor ghost zappers or something.
Hats. This is an unpopular subject, but it's the way I feel. Leave them at home, unless you're baiting ghosts in period dress that requires them, or unless they are part of your personnel identification system. Baseball caps irk me a bit, not because they're hats, but because like most hats, they obstruct some of ones field of vision. Everything above the bill is blind to you. You could easily miss an important clue, or bonk your head on a low hanging object. I recently observed a ghost hunt where everybody was in super long billed caps with the sides way curled in so as to block not only the horizontal above the bill, but a good deal of their peripheral vision as well. If you have to wear a baseball cap, turn it backwards so as not to blind a portion of one of your most important senses: your eyes. Or forgo them all together and provide everyone with birthday party hats. Problem solved.
Dress appropriately.
Comfortable shoes. First rule.
Why do so many ghost investigators I see on TV and on YouTube dress like utter slobs? Black t-shirts with band logos and scenes on them. Shorts all the time (I wear shorts almost every day of the year, but not on investigations), looking scruffy. Doesn't this perpetuate the myth that most ghost hunters can't spell perpetuate, let alone define it? And isn't it somewhat insulting to the spirit world? Maybe they don't get offended. They're dead right? They're in no place to judge.
Bullsh. If you're working an investigation outdoors, in a field, jeans, t-shirts, OK. If you're investigating the Queen Mary, you should take it up a notch or three. A theater? Dress as you would on a date to the theater, as if you're making an effort to impress. If you're going to be on camera, almost dress as if you're interviewing for a job, because every person who sees you from then on, on YouTube or TV, you're doing just that. If you're investigating someones private residence, why not make an effort to NOT look like a felon, rather than the reverse.
Perfumes and colognes. These should be kept to a minimum if worn at all. A lot of times ghosts use smells as cues to their presence, but if anybody and everybody's smelling like they just came from the sample counter, you loose the sense of smell, which is important.
Effectiveness and respect. That's what it's about.

A Ghost Hunt Vs. A Ghost Investigation

Griping About Other Paranormal Groups

Call it a wish list, because that's what it is, in essence. Most of these places we'll not likely get to do, but never say never...

1. The White House.
Honest Abe is said to still walk the halls of this place, where every President except for George Washington has lived. Abraham Lincoln was seen during World War 2, during a visit by British Prime Minister Winston Churchill. Mr. Churchill had just finished a bath while enjoying a cigar and some liquor and was returning to the adjoining Lincoln bedroom, naked - save for his still burning cigar. When he entered the Lincoln bedroom, standing there was none other than the ghost of Abraham Lincoln. "Good evening Mr. President. You seem to have me at a disadvantage" said Churchill, as Abe smiled and faded away. This is one ending to the story of this historic meeting. Another says they stared at each other, obviously embarrassed as Abe faded away. I prefer the former story.
Bottom line, who wouldn't love to meet Abraham Lincoln? Or Dolly Madison, who is said to occasionally totter through as well.

2. Gettysburg.
This horrific battle at this imfamous site, during this horrendous war, harbors more ghosts than one can shake a stick at. It's big too, so I think a week or two would do the job.

3. Paramount Studios
Free reign, especially in the area which housed Desilu. I'll add to this entry all the other movie studios as well. With all the larger than life personalities who have worked in all these studios, many of whom were nothing like their screen personas, and the ordinary people who toiled there, I know there has to be a gaggle of roaming spirits.

4. Goldfield, NV
This applies to the Goldfield Hotel, as well as the town itself. I think the town gets largely overlooked by paranormal investigators because of the fame of the hotel, and if we ever go there, I'd like to focus on the town as well, or even exclusively.

5. Grauman's Chinese Theater
Are you kidding, you might ask. Nope. I suspect that just as the hand and foot prints of Hollywood's greatest are imprinted in concrete, there are an order of magnitude greater number of people's imprints holed up there. Probably some actives too.

6. USS Hornet
I'll add to this entry warships in different regions as well, such as the USS Missouri, and the USS New Jersey.

7. USS United States
The swiftest cruiseship ever sits moldering in Philadelphia. There has even been rumors that it's to be scrapped. This is a shameful fate for a record holder of her stature, and I hope some group comes forward and saves her. Whether she stays in disrepair at the dock, or gets scrapped, I'd love to do a ghost investigation there. I'm nearly certain that there are echos of the past embedded in her hull, and one or two active spirits keeping vigil.

8. The Roosevelt Hotel in Hollywood, Ca
The Roosevelt has at least two inprinted ghosts living there, for lack of a better word, and maybe some actives, though I doubt it. From http://ghosts-hauntings.suite101.com/article.cfm/haunted_hollywood_roosevelt_hotel:
Famous psychic Peter James investigated the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel in 1992. He detected the ghost of Montgomery Clift in room 928 and sensed the strong presence of Marilyn Monroe in the Tropicana Bar. He also felt the presence of Humphrey Bogart near the elevator and Carmen Miranda in a 3rd floor hallway. In the Blossom Room, he discovered Betty Grable and Edward Arnold.

9. The Whaley House in San Diego.
Unfettered access is what I mean. There are tours there often, but I'd like for us to have a full day (or three) access to document activity in this facility. I'm skeptical about the Whaley House, as I feel nothing when I envision it, but I've been wrong before.

10. Queen Mary
Yes, we've done this to death, as have countless others, but again, I'm talking about free reign, unfettered access. I think we could prove or disprove, inside a week, ABSOLUTELY ALL of the purported ghost activity there. And probably get answers as to the why, how and who's of it all.

11. Winchester House
Yes, it's a top 10 list, and this is number 11. If you don't like it, too bad. Deal with it.
I'm super skeptical about this place. I think many times people hype themselves up to the point where seeing and hearing things becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. I believe that is the case at the Winchester House. Now, if they's invite us to spend a few days to prove my theory wrong, we'd be there in a heartbeat.

Honerable mentions
These didn't make the list, and easily could have had my thinking been different when I sat down to write this.

Hearst Castle.
I've never been there, but I've seen a lot of pictures. Oh, what a marvelous place! What I'd give to do a ghost hunt there. If I had lived there, I would definitely continue on after death.

Scotty's Castle, Death Valley
I've been there once, and though no ghost stories were told, I did feel a presence or two, without a doubt. Mainly I think I picked up on imprints, as I could envision things there slightly differently, as if at differnt points in time, the most poignant was a scene looking at the big wooden doors to the courtyard just after a rare rain squall. It was a sunny, cloudless day when we went, but I could see the moisture on the ground, and overcast skies, as if I were looking though someone elses eyes.

Site of the Cooper Murders.
I'm not going to mention the actual name of this place, though I do know it, know the real address, know who the current owners are, as I researched this place throuroghly a few months ago when we thought (in error) that we would be able to gain access to this property for an investigation. I've never been there though.
Ever since I read in the newspaper over 25 years ago about the horrific crime which occurred at this location, I have felt very deep, shocked sorrow for those who lost their lives, and I know without a doubt that at least one of them stayed behind. I have reason to believe now that there are two. I have also been told by someone supposedly in the know that there is a LOT of anger and hostility at this location, and that it is better left alone. Well, that sounds an aweful lot like a challenge to me, and we're up for it. A cleansing needs to be preformed there. And those left behind need to be convinced to leave. If that means them telling their story, let's hear it, I say.

There's probably more which aren't coming to mind at the moment, but if I think of them later, I'll post them. In the meantime I invite you to post yours as well.